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#287809 - May 02nd 2009 7:18 am Dodge EGR timers info
Ram4ever Offline



Registered: March 26th 2007 8:05 pm
Posts: 3727
Loc: Dundee, Michigan
I decided to resurrect some information on EGR timers I posted at dodgetalk.com a while ago. With the increasing number of new members, this might be of some use when it comes to demystifying the purpose of one of those potted metal cans on the firewall...



This was from 3 messages I posted... I've rolled them all together here:

*******

Being bored (-namely it's too breezy outside to be fun to work on the van...) I did a bit of research on some of the other EGR Delay Timers, and I found that they are becoming much less common! Take note of this if you need one: AC Delco has *completely discontinued* them, (I called to verify this) and Standard Motor Parts only still produces their EGT3. (I called them too!) It looks like KEM has discontinued several of them as well!!

Working on antique vehicles makes me feel old sometimes...

Since I have two timers on hand I decided to see what their delay times were. My various manuals claimed the idea with the EGR Delay Timer & CTS system is to prevent the EGR system (which includes the evaporative canister system) from operating until the air charge (the air fuel mixture in the intake manifold) temperature reaches 60 degrees, and to delay an additional 60 seconds after the air charge temperature does exceed 60 degrees. (In cold weather they figure on the air cleaner's Heated Inlet Air System to eventually stabilize the air charge temperature at around 100 degrees once the engine's exhaust manifold has warmed up sufficiently.)

I set up a bench power supply and wiring to simulate the CTS and EGR solenoid, and found that my Mopar 4111181 is a 90 second timer. This is equivalent to a Mopar 4111481, and the SMP EGT3 and KEM 173-603. These are the Red or Gray colored units.

My Mopar 4111180 is a 60 second delay unit. It is orange colored. These appear to no longer be in aftermarket production. The good news is that the connector and wiring is identical to the 90 second units, so a 90 second delay timer could be used as a drop-in replacement - giving you a slight additional delay before the EGR kicks in.

I don't have one of the 4111179 timers (black colored) to test, so I don't know it's delay time yet. If I find one I'll post the results.

As a further public service, I'll add the only diagram I've *ever* found for the correct and complete Emission wiring of my van - a 1981 Dodge Ram B250 Custom Sportsman 6400 GVW maxi van with 318 & 2bbl carb. It also applies to the 4 bbl version, and the 360 4bbl. The Haynes and Chiltons diagrams aren't even close, and even adjacent year Dodge service manuals don't have this exact diagram.



Oh, BTW - I found it is necessary to test these EGR Delay Timers with a load which approximates the EGR solenoid resistance. I used a 30 ohm resistor. Without the load they won't toggle their output.


*************

Another rainy day here... I finally got my hands on a black 411179, and I found it's delay time is 35 seconds.

These EGR delay timer's purpose is to keep the EGR valve from opening for a period of time after starting the engine, to give the engine a little time to warm up so it won't stall as easily.

So, if passing emissions are an issue for you, I'd think the 35 second delay 411179 is your baby. If the engine is hard to keep running immediately after starting, probably the 60 second 411180, or the 90 second 411181 or 411481 is the ticket.

BTW, these are practically obsolete *now*!

After much runaround and several canceled orders I finally got one from KEM, (which interestingly had the Chrysler insignia on it...) and the invoice stated "Available until stock exhausted". Take that as notice that if you need a new one this is probably your very last chance. In short order they will all be boneyard only parts.


I've seen these timers in Dodge vans, pickups, and Ramchargers, as well as cars like the Omni & Aries, which all used EGR systems, up to the entry of the Electronic Spark Control computer on the scene. Since many of our most treasured vintage vans are from the pre-computer era, I wanted to get this information out so that no fellow Vanners would be surprised by yet another non-available part situation, or baffled by what to do if they need a substitute for these poorly documented parts.


************

I also got a green 3874129 out of a 1977 Dodge van a while back, but I haven't tested it yet. One of these days...
_________________________
-It's been such a LONG TIME... 1981 Dodge Ram B250 Custom Sportsman Maxi Van



It's what you learn after you know it all, that counts...

Are you living to work, or working to live?



Learning from my own mistakes is good, learning from yours would be much better!

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#288038 - May 03rd 2009 10:22 am Re: Dodge EGR timers info [Re: Ram4ever]
NateNCBV Offline

Administrator

Registered: August 23rd 2005 12:00 pm
Posts: 20415
Loc: Brooklyn Park, Maryland, USA
Good info for sure.

I fixed the emissions system on my 85 by getting rid of it all. grin
_________________________
Nate Breece
2%
North Chesapeake Bay Vans
--------------
1994 Dodge B250 Elk Conversion (5.2L/A518)
2008 Dodge Caravan (3.8L)

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#288085 - May 03rd 2009 1:41 pm Re: Dodge EGR timers info [Re: NateNCBV]
Ram4ever Offline



Registered: March 26th 2007 8:05 pm
Posts: 3727
Loc: Dundee, Michigan
Originally Posted By: Nate the skate

I fixed the emissions system on my 85 by getting rid of it all. grin


LOL!

Yah, that can work, but you have to be mechanically inclined and then re-tune everything.

I figure that with a "greener" future in the USA, smog tests are likely going to become more widespread and more aggressive... especially if the "cash-for-clunkers" bill passes. This info might help save someone's van, especially in the California emissions regime.

Well, I'm going to head outside and make up the difference by doing some painting on my van with good old-fashioned toluene-based paint!

;0)

Clear skies!
_________________________
-It's been such a LONG TIME... 1981 Dodge Ram B250 Custom Sportsman Maxi Van



It's what you learn after you know it all, that counts...

Are you living to work, or working to live?



Learning from my own mistakes is good, learning from yours would be much better!

Top
#569572 - June 19th 2012 3:11 pm Re: Dodge EGR timers info [Re: Ram4ever]
DOX80DODGE Offline
journeyman

Registered: July 22nd 2008 1:10 am
Posts: 63
Loc: P.E.I. CANADA
thanks for the excellent imformation...been trying for ages to find out what they were even called as no info in haynes manual...and as i cant find one in a junkyard,...and not available new, guess i am shit out of luck,lol...
btw...the number on mine was 4111922...
where are they located on a 77?

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#569577 - June 19th 2012 3:57 pm Re: Dodge EGR timers info [Re: Ram4ever]
Reed Offline
carpal tunnel

Registered: August 27th 2001 12:00 pm
Posts: 8766
Loc: Fircrest, WA
You know, given that the aftermarket is no longer producing these, it will probably be worth it to post a tutorial of how to dig out the goo that seals the back of these units and how to reseal them after making repairs to the circuit board.
_________________________
Windows- they're what make a van worth owning!

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#569791 - June 20th 2012 9:54 am Re: Dodge EGR timers info [Re: Reed]
DOX80DODGE Offline
journeyman

Registered: July 22nd 2008 1:10 am
Posts: 63
Loc: P.E.I. CANADA
That is a good idea...as the back is completely melted out of mine....and how to test them to see if they are working would be a help....

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#569819 - June 20th 2012 12:00 pm Re: Dodge EGR timers info [Re: Ram4ever]
NateNCBV Offline

Administrator

Registered: August 23rd 2005 12:00 pm
Posts: 20415
Loc: Brooklyn Park, Maryland, USA
As was the one on my 85. My fix was to place it in the circular file. grin
_________________________
Nate Breece
2%
North Chesapeake Bay Vans
--------------
1994 Dodge B250 Elk Conversion (5.2L/A518)
2008 Dodge Caravan (3.8L)

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#570198 - June 21st 2012 11:57 pm Re: Dodge EGR timers info [Re: NateNCBV]
DOX80DODGE Offline
journeyman

Registered: July 22nd 2008 1:10 am
Posts: 63
Loc: P.E.I. CANADA
well after driving 6 hours today scouring 6 yards...I found two ...thought my prob finally solved....but got home and they wont fit....Gggrrrrr....they look identical, but both diff numbers and colors, which makes sense from prior info here...but if you yook at the above pic, the small inner tab ,so you dont plug it in wrong,...is on the left....mine is on the right....if ya shaved the tab off it would fit, but i do not want to screw something up?....what is the difference between two?

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#570894 - June 26th 2012 5:20 am Re: Dodge EGR timers info [Re: Ram4ever]
Ram4ever Offline



Registered: March 26th 2007 8:05 pm
Posts: 3727
Loc: Dundee, Michigan
Doggone, 6 boneyards within driving distance. What a luxury!

DOX80DODGE, you did know that the exterior of the module's can is used as their electrical ground? You may want to try running a separate ground wire from the battery to your original EGR timer and see if it wakes back up! The firewall ground screws on Dodges were infamous for losing contact. I've even seen the firewall's weld nuts lose continuity to the rest of the firewall, which is a tough one to explain. The separate ground wire solution is time-proven.

My understanding of the reason for the change in location of the alignment tab in the 3-pin connector is that there was a wiring change in the modules which would lead to damage if the incorrect vintage of module were plugged in.

While I haven't personally tested one of the types with the difference, I read somewhere that the 12v power comes in on a different pin on the module.

You definitely wouldn't want to remove the alignment tab and jam the connector on without knowing exactly what you have. Could lead to dead modules, melted wires, and other undesirable issues.

It may be possible to trace out the wiring on some of the Chrysler wiring diagrams to verify what pins are used for which functions. Did you write down what model and year of van you removed the modules from? The engine size may make a difference too.

It's also quite possible that you may have come up with ETC "Electronic Throttle Controller" modules, which despite being in the same potted can format, are an entirely different bird. Their output is something like a variable pulse-width modulated signal which is used to drive a throttle control solenoid, rather than a simple hi or low output like the EGR timers generate. It's sort of fun listening to an ETC controller work the solenoid; they make a variety of high pitched whistling or whining sounds like the electronic drive in my Honda Hybrids.

You've probably got ETC modules if the carb had something like the gold solenoid on the upper left in this picture:


I thought I had a decent picture of my new ETC module, which is brown color, but since I can't find it right now, here's a picture of the unpotted original ETC module for reference:


-You can clearly see that it has the alignment tab on the opposite side.

BTW, having the potting compound liquefy and run out doesn't necessarily mean that there's anything wrong electronically with a module. Some of the potting compound formulations that were used aged poorly and would gradually become sticky, then liquefy and flow out as they aged. If water and dirt and insects get into the exposed electronics they may lead to a failure, but if you repot the module adequately to keep water and large contaminants out, it will probably still last for quite a while. For repotting, I would try something like red high voltage RTV or clear aquarium cement. Non-metallic Epoxy would be great, but if you ever wanted to get back inside the module it would be very difficult to remove.
_________________________
-It's been such a LONG TIME... 1981 Dodge Ram B250 Custom Sportsman Maxi Van



It's what you learn after you know it all, that counts...

Are you living to work, or working to live?



Learning from my own mistakes is good, learning from yours would be much better!

Top

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