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Re: Ignition System (Electrical... Wire Tracing)
nikothenomad #673278 October 20th 2014 9:41 am
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Ram,

You are awesome! Once again, you've given me a lot to think about (and learn :o). We're back to our three days 'on' so won't be back until this evening and we're getting rain here so plenty of time to read and absorb what you've written.

I laughed so hard on the tests being the wrong spark. I thought something must not be right but heck it sure was fun to get confident putting jumper wires to things. I'll try again as soon as I get a chance.

Things have changed a bit with the van. I did get it to start after much trying and will update you as soon as I get a chance.

Thanks, again! I know we'll get this figured out.



Nicole
1988 Dodge B250 5.9l 360 Ram CamperVan / 727 Tranny / Rochester Quadrajet Carb
www.nikothenomad.blogspot.com
Re: Ignition System (Electrical... Wire Tracing)
nikothenomad #673311 October 20th 2014 7:22 pm
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STEP 1: "Just pull and position the spark cable exactly like you did to take your cool pictures." Ha Ha. Never claimed to be a great reader. I'm more of a visual learner :o)

The good news is that I was able to pick up some old alligator clips from the maintenance shop today and will be able to use them to make a nifty wire set-up.

Speaking of wire... yes, we have a whole lot and I would love to simplify it at some point. When we started our renovations inside we eliminated close to 75% of the wiring that was in there. Not sure what they were thinking but it was everywhere and it didn't need to be. Neither did all of those little blue clips!

So, let me provide an update as to where we are now. A lot has happened (sort of). After getting everything cleaned and put back together I couldn't get the van to start. She would crank just dandy so yes the starter seemed to be doing just fine but just not "fire". This was not different than the other times when she would give us a hard time and take extended periods to fire up. I guess I just thought after all of my hard work she would vroom vroom.

Eventually, I did get her to crank and managed to crank her a few more times after that (still required second or third crank though) and let her run for a bit to re-charge the battery.

I am going to be disorganized here so bear with me. Given that I have been reading about starters and starter solenoids I crawled under the van to check the contacts on the starter (which best I could tell were really clean - can't say the same for the starter thanks to the 'spray' I haven't fixed under there yet). Anyway, it just didn't seem right that I was getting battery voltage at the starter (big red battery line) even though the key was not in or on. Shouldn't happen right?

So, I got to wondering about the starter relay (which I had ohm tested and it was "ok"). I also wondered about the starter solenoid since I never hear it click but figured I was just not close enough (even though the doghouse is off and it is right under me).

The next time before I started the van I checked the starter and the voltage was still there. I couldn't get it to go away by doing anything so I started the van. While it was running the starter was also getting the alternator 14+ voltage. That just doesn't seem right.

I just don't know at which point in the cycle to check for things. I tried checking voltage on the relay (which I also don't hear click). I get battery voltage at the bat tab but not seeing that amount at others like the one that should go to the ECU? So, I skipped to the ballast resistor and on the top (pink in my case) wire I was getting in the 11 range and on the lower terminal I was getting in the 7 range (which is what I read on my coil +)

So, that's the latest. We've got a couple days of rain here in the desert so I won't get out there until it dries up. Then I'll run through the three tests again and anything else anyone can think of... This electrical stuff is all new to me so it may take a bit to get me through it.

"If you don't mind my asking, what did you use to clean it?"
I don't mind so long as you don't flame me for it :o) I used the only thing I had available which was WD-40. It isn't as clean as it could be but I had hoped it would at least show me an improvement of some kind.

"The splice with the heat shrink, was it in line with the ground wire to the chassis?" That sound about right but I haven't traced anything beyond the firewall yet. I'm leaving the 'other side' for another day.

Thank you for your great hose comparison. It makes a good bit of sense when I think of it that way. Electrical has always eluded my grasp despite having a father who was an Electrical Engineer. I'll get there though.

"When the device the wire powers is turned on and begins to draw current, there would be a massive voltage drop due to the few remaining Copper strands not being large enough to support sufficient current flow to the device without heating up. You'd know to further inspect that wire and any connectors or splices then." So, although I tested the splices with the key on if they lead to something that pulls more than that basic "run" position voltage I would want that running and see if there is a drop?

When it comes to the electrical ground of the ECU I get what you are saying about the thin firewall and not much to ground to. I was surprised in that regard. The ECU does bolt on super tightly so that is good but my firewall has a pretty good coating of paint. I'd hate to sand that down and create an opportunity for rust but I did wire-brush it and the screw holes. Is that sufficient or do I need to get bare metal?

Well, I think that's the gist of it for now. I will create the alligator clip deal and re-test and re-photograph!

Essentially though I did eventually get her to fire and run with much cranking over time (fuel delivery by the way is solid and good as ever). I just don't know what is the culprit that is keeping voltage to the starter at all times.

Still searching... :o)



Nicole
1988 Dodge B250 5.9l 360 Ram CamperVan / 727 Tranny / Rochester Quadrajet Carb
www.nikothenomad.blogspot.com
Ignition Switch ... Test Results
nikothenomad #673323 October 20th 2014 10:38 pm
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OK... I should have known better than to think that I could resist running the tests now that I had the alligator clips even if it was raining.

Here's the results: The spark was very thin in all cases as compared to the thicker version when doing a basic spark
test. But I am not so sure it wasn't a bit 'bluer'?? Since I wasn't sure I went through all three tests. I really think it was still in the redish / purplish / pinkish range versus a bright blueish / white as I would expect. It was just so thin to really tell. What do you think?

This is the result of a basic spark test prior to the other three.

[Linked Image]

Test 1 - Ground to Neg on Coil - I tested it on two different grounds just to ensure that I had a good one.

[Linked Image]

and

[Linked Image]

Test 2 - Pos Bat to Pos Coil.

[Linked Image]

Test 3 - Bat - to ECU Grounding Bolt - I tested both bolts in case one was better or worse than the other.

[Linked Image]

and

[Linked Image]

Well, there you have it. I was working solo today so the focus on the shots is not so great but hopefully it will show enough.

I had a little extra time so I took some voltage measurements on my starter relay again. I should have said in the previous post that the relay says EGR not ECU. Also the SOL terminal on mine is not used. I'm thinking that might have been for an in tank fuel pump (mine is mechanical).

Alright so: At the BAT terminal (with key on and with key off) I get battery voltage readings. At BAL terminal I get 7.60v. At EGR terminal I get .10v and at I - 0 volts.

Any thoughts? I know most folks would throw parts at it until it worked because none of them are expensive but I appreciate more actually knowing what is going on and learning about my system. So, any other ideas or tests that you think I am capable of I am willing to run.

Thanks so much!







Nicole
1988 Dodge B250 5.9l 360 Ram CamperVan / 727 Tranny / Rochester Quadrajet Carb
www.nikothenomad.blogspot.com
Re: Ignition Switch ... Test Results
nikothenomad #673457 October 23rd 2014 6:39 am
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Niko, Enthusiasm is one of the greatest of virtues! smile

I was indisposed over the last day or so, so I need to catch up and digest what all you've observed.

Great job on the pictures! Those tests performed with the test wires look substantially bluer and more normal to me, at least within the limits I expect of cameras to capture and a PC to display. The first control test spark was decidedly orange and diffuse.

The thin appearance of the blue spark isn't as much of an issue as is getting the high energy blue color. I should explain that there will be a difference in the appearance of the spark tests between what you observe with a straight test wire and with the proper Chrysler test device or the ECU. The factory recommended device would consist of a small cable with a wire tied to a capacitor, which would provide a different profile of current spike to trigger the spark coil, more closely matching the effect of the ECU switching. You may see a fatter blue spark with the capacitor test cable. The straight wire tests are perfectly legit though, and are in fact the initial test in the official troubleshooting chart.

Have you to tried to locate and clean up that chassis ground stud on the firewall right behind your battery? There will be multiple black wires with ring terminals attached to it. It's a *critical* connection. To me the test where your test wire provided a different ground to the ECU ground bolt and you then observed a blue spark indicates that you have a genuine grounding issue, as that ECU ground to battery (-) would normally be a very low resistance path.

You may find that you have one of the vans where it's beneficial to run a permanent ground wire directly from your battery (-) terminal directly to the ECU ground bolt. It won't hurt a thing to do that, and it can stay there forever. By improving the quality of the ground over what is causing the orange spark, you may even see a slight improvement in your engine's operation.

The start-run relay sits just below that ground stud. Since the start pickup coil inside the distributor is selected by the start-run relay, it *has* to work properly for the van to start. I haven't looked into whether it's practical to force it to a bypass condition, for instance by jumpering the start coil signal across it, but if your ECU is connected and you see any spark with the high voltage cable held the way you did for your pictures, while cranking the engine with your ignition key in the start position, that would indicate the start contacts are working, meaning the signal from the start coil is reaching and triggering the ECU. Try checking the spark while cranking and see what you see.

If you do see the spark, this would open up several other avenues to investigate for the non-start condition.

Have you tried to see if you can get the engine to start with the test wire between the battery (-) and the ECU ground bolt?

I'd also try to eliminate the main ground cable, which sometimes can corrode and crystallize internally, by attaching a battery jump start cable to the battery (-) terminal and then, being really careful that it can't become entangled in the fan or belts, attach the other end directly to the engine block, either at the terminal where the main ground cable attaches at the front of the one head, or perhaps onto a safer, more convenient large metal bracket or the body of the starter. If this changes the symptoms, the main ground cable has issues.

Another quick test which might help eliminate/isolate part of your starting system would be to see if your engine will start if you can get someone to perform a jump start. That would eliminate the potential of a sagging battery, like from a weak cell, to be upsetting things.

I'll check back in later.







-It's been such a LONG TIME... BlueShift>> 1981 Dodge Ram B250 Custom Sportsman Maxi Van


[Linked Image]

It's what you learn after you know it all, that counts...

Are you living to work, or working to live?

[Linked Image]

Learning from my own mistakes is good, learning from yours would be much better! [Linked Image]
Re: Ignition Switch ... Test Results
nikothenomad #673473 October 23rd 2014 3:26 pm
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Thanks for the additional details in the PM; I've responded at length there. It does sound like you've substantially lost the ground to the ECU.


-It's been such a LONG TIME... BlueShift>> 1981 Dodge Ram B250 Custom Sportsman Maxi Van


[Linked Image]

It's what you learn after you know it all, that counts...

Are you living to work, or working to live?

[Linked Image]

Learning from my own mistakes is good, learning from yours would be much better! [Linked Image]
Re: Ignition System (Electrical... Wire Tracing)
nikothenomad #675887 November 30th 2014 9:58 am
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Niko, Thanks a lot for the awesomely documented post! I sincerely hope your electrical gremlins have been vanquished. All who posted are way ahead of me, but are great to have here on Vanning.com. Thanks Guys, n Gals! There will always be direct battery voltage to the starter, on the fat wire from the battery. Takes a lot to crank a V8, That’s why Chrysler was smart, and had geared starters. I too have an ignition switch problem, mine isn’t electrical, (unless you count the short circuit in my Ex GF’s brain.) Like keeping my key is gonna stop me from Vannin… I just need a new lock cylinder and a key set. A new switch would work, I guess. If I may inquire as to where you sourced your new unit? And did you get your issue fixed. I’d love to hear that you did, and know how you did it. I also have a hard start issue, been getting worse, (prior to the stolen key issue…) Ha! It would crank increasingly longer, then fire up. Cold, hot, didn’t matter. ‘88 318 EFI B250/518 OD. Anyone? Thanks all. In Vanning, Wedgy


BBC Blue
1990 Chevy G30 L19 7.4 EXT
Church Van, maternity division

DogVan
1988 Dodge B250
LA series 318 Wedge 5.2 TBI A500

Cabin Cruiser
'94 Dodge B350 www.xplorermotorhome.com/
Xplorer MH model 230
230 hp LA series 360 Wedge MPI 5.9 A518 OD auto

Old vans are getting pricey!
Re: Ignition System (Electrical... Wire Tracing)
nikothenomad #676023 December 01st 2014 9:46 pm
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Hey, Wedgy. Well, can't say that all of the gremlins are gone but then again if they were our girl wouldn't be our girl. What I can say is that I made it through just about every test I could find to check every inch of the starting systems wiring and components and everything tested just fine. I sort of figured that would be the case given the inconsistency of it all. One minute struggling the next starts like a brand new van.

So, since other things have since come up I have taken a bit of a break from trying to obtain the perfect start and been focusing on some other things.

The ignition switch that I bought I purchased at O'reilly's. While I could have probably gotten a better deal from rockauto or other online sources with our ongoing travels it is just easier to buy from a local parts store.

There are a few things that I think contribute to our starting issue:

1) We park for long periods of time without starting the van. To add to that it has been suggested that the anti-drainback valve in our mech fuel pump is probably not working. We often have to crank for a good bit to get the fuel pumped back up given we lose our prime.

2) Not sure if I am using the right term here but our torque converter is most likely damaged. We get that random grinding now and then when it just happened to land in the right spot at last key turn off. I wonder if sometimes although it isn't in the grinding spot it is in a spot that doesn't quite get a good teeth connection. Once it does... vroom vroom like nothing was ever wrong.

3) We change altitude a lot and I don't adjust anything on the carb when we do. Perhaps I should look more into that but it hasn't been something I've spent time on.

4) Cleaning up the corroded wiring I found didn't cure things but I could definitely tell it added a bit more punch electrically.

Well, I think that is it. We're still working out a tire issue, I snapped a vacuum line that I need to repair and we recently developed a low speed vibration that may indicate our u-joints need replacement (if not something else). After living in her for three years we think our girl is a little upset that we've temporarily moved into a trailer and she's providing a bit of a protest!

Good luck with your starting issue.





Nicole
1988 Dodge B250 5.9l 360 Ram CamperVan / 727 Tranny / Rochester Quadrajet Carb
www.nikothenomad.blogspot.com
Re: Ignition System (Electrical... Wire Tracing)
nikothenomad #676272 December 05th 2014 10:55 am
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GM Niko,
Thanks very much for the info for my Ignition switch. When I lived back in San Diego, O'Reilly's was my store of choice. It's good to get to know people in places like that. Just like all of the places we travel to, even online here at Vanning.com, it's the people that make a place special. Without the people, it's just another place. I learned a lot from your posts, and the replies. Lots of very cool people on here, for sure. Reed could confirm this, he's the humble Transmission Guru, but I believe in an Automatic Transmission application, the part you are referring to, that may have a missing tooth or two, is called a Flexplate. The Tourque Converter bolts up to that. In a Manual Transmission, it would have a Flywheel, and the Clutch/Pressure plate would bolt up to that. On your vibration issue, I had a bad rear mount on my A518 Automatic. I like your Van, 360! YaY! Your Desert signature picture is beautiful. Best of luck on chasin' your Gremlins! Happy Trails Always, Wedgy


BBC Blue
1990 Chevy G30 L19 7.4 EXT
Church Van, maternity division

DogVan
1988 Dodge B250
LA series 318 Wedge 5.2 TBI A500

Cabin Cruiser
'94 Dodge B350 www.xplorermotorhome.com/
Xplorer MH model 230
230 hp LA series 360 Wedge MPI 5.9 A518 OD auto

Old vans are getting pricey!
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